But I wanted to be the Wizard: Medievalisms, Childhood, Adolescence, and Identity Formation

Alan Perry, Emrys Brandt, and Mya Jones

 

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Recommended citation: Alan Perry, Emrys Brandt, and Mya Jones, “But I wanted to be the Wizard: Medievalisms, Childhood, Adolescence, and Identity Formation,” Different Visions: New Perspectives on Medieval Art 11 (2025). https://doi.org/10.61302/CXBE8795.

 

Introduction

Alan Perry (he/him) and Emrys Brandt (he/they), co-hosts of the podcast Medievalism Today, are in conversation with multimedia artist Mya Jones (she/her) about how identity formation is influenced by the reception of medievalisms, especially with regards to gender identity and racial identity. All parties discuss personal exposure to medievalisms and neo-medievalisms during early childhood and adolescence, when an individual’s self-image is formed, focusing on discrete media objects and experiences as pinpoints of gender and race conceptualizations through an idea of “the Medieval.”

Speaker Biographies

Alan Perry is an interdisciplinary artist working with video, installation, artist’s books, computer animation, 3D printing, creative coding, and photography. His practice questions the relationship between past and present, with a focus on communication technology and the magical or arcane aura it often assumes. Alan is an internationally-exhibited artist and co-host of Medievalism Today, a podcast exploring the Middle Ages, technology, and contemporary aesthetics.

Emrys Brandt is a trans-disciplinary artist and researcher based in Chicago, IL, on the land of the Ojibwe, Potawatomi, and Odawa. Their current roles include being a 2024 Muña Fellow through Chuquimarca Art Library, Seasonal Coordinator at Bird Show (an outdoor exhibition space in Chicago), Co-Director of Craft Nite (a queer event space in Ukrainian Village), and co-host of Medievalism Today.

Mya is an award-winning multimedia artist and content creation professional whose impressive precocity has provided her the opportunity to work across a broad spectrum of creative and business forums nationally and internationally. Content production and storytelling through reporting and digital media has been a specialty for years. Alongside her work, Mya is interested in fashion photography, theater, and criticism spending her free time on various creative projects.

Audio recording 

 

Transcript of Audio Recording

Alan: Hello and welcome to a very special I suppose recording for the special issue of Different Visions, an academic journal of Progressive medieval studies. My name is Alan Perry and I’m joined here with Mya Jones and Emrys Brandt. Emrys Brandt and I are co-hosts of the podcast Medievalism Today, where we talk about the Middle Ages, contemporary art and technology. And Mya here is a multifaceted visual artist based in Philadelphia. And we we’re here to kind of talk about essentially identity formation in the Middle Ages, how when we’re growing up how this sort of idea or concept forms in our own mind, you know, how it’s culturally or societally informed. And then also, you know, how that kind of interacts with our own ideas about ourself. So welcome, Emrys. Welcome, Mya. I hope you’re having a good days today, both of you.

Mya: Yes, thank you for having me.

Alan: Yes, thank you for coming on. So you know this just kind of being more of an open-ended conversation kind of kind of the first thing that I wanted to start off with is, asking both of you really, is what your earliest memory of the Middle Ages is, if that’s through film, art, games, books or when you were first kind of introduced to this idea of the “Middle Ages”.

Emrys: Yeah, I know Mya you mentioned part of the reason why we were talking to you about this opportunity through Different Visions was your interest in the film, The Green Knight. And I know that was a more recent film, but. Since you mentioned it, I was wondering if that could be a potential jumping in point for this conversation too.

Mya: Yeah. Well, I would say my like earliest would actually be like in middle school going to Medieval Times,[1] you know, dinner and tournament. That is like still my favorite place ever, and I’ve gone like so many times, like ever since middle school. But my middle school first took us as like a field trip during lunch time, so that was pretty cool, I guess. But yeah, the Green Knight is something that I have been, like, really fascinated with. I mean, I have, there’s like a board game that A24 released for the Green Knight like I have that it’s like a role playing game. I have like the collectors like DVD for it, but I would say like my interest in the Green Knight actually comes from my interest in the novel. Grendel,[2] which you know comes from Beowulf,[3] the original like short story. So I guess like, that’s kind of a round about where I’m coming from with everything.

Alan: OK. Very interesting. So with Grendel and Beowulf, when were you exposed to those sorts of pieces of media?

Mya: I was exposed to Grendel in high school. So I guess not that long ago, honestly. Like my junior year of high school, maybe. Other like some of the Advanced English courses, they read the book for like actual school. I didn’t have to read it for my class. I actually just stumbled upon it because I’m a very specific person in terms of like what books I read. And so Grendel kind of was recommended to me at a bookstore. And I read it and I really loved it compared to like everyone in high school that hated it because they had to read it for school, but I really, really loved it. Just something about, there’s so much like imagery and like, I don’t know, like culture within, like the Middle Ages or like time back then cause I guess that’s when everything was, I don’t know, just like mead and large dinner tables and, I don’t know, festivals. So yeah, just really interested in that.

Alan: Yeah, I’m also curious about you too, Emrys, you know, kind of where your first interaction with this historical period? Or I also I also should maybe take a step back here, 1/2 step back, and make this distinction between the history, the Middle Ages as a historical period, and the fantasy of the Middle Ages too.

Emrys: Yeah. Yeah, I would say that my first sort of archetype that I interacted with is like the concept of a Wizard. My grandfather was really obsessed with wizards and he had a lot of wizard statues in his house for whatever reason, but also, speaking of archetypes, I had this book when I was a kid, kind of a little bit of an older kid, called the Princess Knight,[4] which was a book by Cornelia Funke. Which obviously there’s two very prominent archetypes in the title, but it was sort of like a feminist reclamation of the traditional narrative of a knight rescuing a Princess, which comes to mind also as a plug. Also, I honestly have to say Shrek,[5] I think is a huge pop culture like point of reference for certain medieval archetypes.

Alan: Sure. Absolutely. And there’s also something I can’t believe I did not expect us to start talking about Shrek this deeply, but I do also think that there’s a like, a little bit of a subversion of those archetypal norms in Shrek too. Like, you know, the end of Shrek 1 where, you know, the expectations of the audience are subverted by Fiona – it’s been a while – retaining her ogre form or whatever, you know, but I also, since we’re kind of like talking now a little bit about subversion and maybe the monstrous with ogres, I’m also curious if we could just double back a little bit. I’m not actually familiar with Grendel – So is that a retelling of Beowulf from the perspective of Grendel?

Mya: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It’s a retelling of the story, but from the perspective of Grendel, the monster, and it’s like first person through him. And there’s like a lot of cool stuff I actually, like honestly, I’ve never even read Beowulf. I’ve just read Grendel. I’ve intended on going back to read the original. But yeah, that’s exactly what Grendel is.

Alan: Perfect. Yeah. So I mean, this kind of leads, we’ve already kind of covered some ground here, but I mean did that story resonate with you or are there other stories that you, you know, Grendel, Princess Knight, that these sorts of stories resonated with you as far as it relates to your sense of self – Anything around those lines?

Mya: I would say for sure, like one of the big things in Grendel. Which, like I don’t know, really meant a lot to me is Grendel has like these interactions with this dragon that’s like telling him about his fate and everything. I’m a very big person on like fate, like I’m a big believer in fate and that like, you can’t get away from your fate or whatever is intended for you. And I also feel like, I know there’s so many like, I don’t know, coming of age stories or like so many stories where, like fate is all about figuring out who you are. Like this isn’t about the Middle Ages, but like Kung Fu Panda is all about fate. And like with Kung Fu Panda like it’s all about Po figuring out who he is. And so. I feel like I connect with like those elements, especially in like the Green Knight.[6] There’s also that element of like fate and like truth and honesty and being and discovering who you are. So I feel like that’s what deeply resonates with me is like the in relation to self discovery.

Emrys: I guess I kind of have, maybe even an opposing perspective on that, where I think something that really intrigues me and especially like, the pieces of media I remember, although now reflecting, I’m also thinking about like, Monty Python’s Holy Grail,[7] which is actually probably the earliest exposure, is that medieval archetypes, fantasy archetypes I feel like are proliferate so much of, like, culture that it’s very – I feel like there’s sort of a trend to subvert archetypes, and that’s like such an easy swath of characters to subvert, which is something that I actually think probably resonated a lot with me just like being trans, probably because of, like, subverting expectations or like detouring from prescribed archetypes, especially ones that are related to gender like the book The Princess Knight, where it’s kind of like Brave[8] where she saves herself or like does her own – She’s been like the mysterious knight and like wins the princess’s hand and like wins her own hand.

Alan: I love how we’re also kind of making a reading list as we’re going along here. Yeah, it’s great. Yeah. I mean, I think that’s that’s one of the things that I find really fascinating about the fantasy element of the Middle Ages because it’s it seems like it’s so distant in time that it’s really almost like a – and I think, Emrys, you and I have talked about this on the podcast – but it’s like, almost like a playground for, for ideas because it seems so, so out of step with the modern world. So just to kind of like maybe ground it a little bit more in a historical dialogue. I mean, how was the Middle Ages approached in your, you know, in your in your journey in life and your upbringing as far as like a historical event or historical period, you know, because I think, Mya, you just mentioned that it was middle school, early high school for you. Do you remember?

Mya: Yeah.

Alan: I know it feels like ages ago, I’m sure, but you know. How did that idea of the historical period mesh with your received idea of, you know, maybe the fantastical elements like, “wait, Dragons didn’t actually exist?” You know, that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Mya: I mean, I think like with the historical idea like, well, one thing like I I’ve gone to like a couple of museums and seen like real armor and like swords and like, actually I actually own a couple swords from, like Medieval Times myself. So I definitely like caught a glimpse of the the truth of it like, the actual history of it. And then just recently when I was in Kronach in Germany, we stayed in an actual like, fort, like an old fort that they used a really long time ago, so that was also like really real history. We’re like walking like underground tunnels and I feel like the history of it is only like enriched, like the fantasy end of it for me, because I feel like there is like, obviously there’s a lot of history like documented that I feel like because it is still so long ago, I feel like it’s still so easily to be like this fantastical thing, could have totally happened in the background. Especially because there are like real stories of like, you know, people thinking that witches are real and putting witches on trial and that kind of thing. And so I feel like even knowing historical context I can never separate fantasy from like history if that makes sense.

Alan: Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, the mythology element there where, like, myth is kind of straddling the line between the fantastical and the real. Yeah. What about you, Emrys? What was your kind of, like, educational journey with the Middle Ages and did that change your mind about the Middle Ages at all?

Emrys: I think a lot of the media I interacted with had fantastical elements referencing the Middle Ages or medieval aesthetics. I’ve honestly always had a hard time grounding that within a historic lineage because of the fantastical elements. However, in high school, I read a good amount of The Mists of Avalon,[9] which is the only piece where I felt I could understand it within a historic lineage. Although it is fantastic, it’s like a mythological retelling of the shrinking of Celtic religions in the United Kingdom.

You know, I think a lot of my history education focused on the Roman Empire. I learned that Christianity spread upwards into the United Kingdom, causing clashes, but eventually, it became Christian. My understanding of history is really based on Christian history.

Alan: It’s totally fun. [laughs]

Emrys: I don’t know.. it’s that’s kind of funny to me, but …

Alan: Yeah. No, it’s definitely to, to your point about the Roman Empire and stuff, right? Like it’s definitely a… I mean, reflecting on my own experience with, with the history of the Middle Ages, it’s absolutely a kind of it’s positioned as the thing that happens after the Roman Empire and it’s all very, you know, Eurocentric and Western and all, all of those sorts of things. But uh yeah, and I mean, I mean I  think that there’s a lot of direction here at kind of like the tertiary or university level, where we’re talking about the Global Middle Ages.[10] And I’m just kind of wondering when that might begin to penetrate into K – 12 education? Because, I mean, yeah, it’s kind of interesting. This is something that I’ve reflected on a little bit, but I think it’s interesting to be somebody from the United States and then the Middle Ages always happen somewhere over there in Europe, right, even though it’s not necessarily true. You know, when we brought up a Kung Fu panda, I was kind of wondering when that was set? Would that technically fit? You know, Wikipedia just says it’s ancient China.

Emrys: Yeah.

Mya: So that’s actually a good point. Like what year was that cause? Yeah, because you’re right, cause like the middle age is like, it wasn’t just like Europe that existed at that time.

Alan: That time.

Mya: Yeah. I think even then, like I went to a Renaissance fair recently and it just clicked in my mind that it was like, Oh my God, this is Old Europe cosplay.

Alan: Absolutely. Did it happen to be – I almost plugged this earlier but I guess I’ll plug it now – the Bristol Renaissance Fair?

Mya: No, it was I guess maybe it wasn’t too recent, but it was right at the end of May, it was and it’s here in Philadelphia. It’s up to like the military Fort cause then it kind of looks like crumbling castles or whatever. Yeah.

Alan: Ah. OK, in Chicagoland, there’s, uh, there’s one called Bristol Renaissance faire and uh, we’ve talked about it a little bit on the podcast, but it’s definitely like. I don’t know. It makes me think more about Dungeons and Dragons than the historical Middle Ages, but that’s, you know, I mean that’s also part of, like, this idea of the fantasy of the Middle Ages. Right. And that is a space to play. But OK, so, we’ve talked about the fantasy element here, and the historical element. Now you know what I kind of want to turn to is this idea of self identity formation or self-image formation. And how you know have certain parts of your personality or identity – the way that you conceive of yourself or think of yourself – has that been reflected or refracted through this idea of the Middle Ages for both of you?

Mya: Well, I have a very like, I have a very like real take here.

Alan: Yeah, let’s hear it.

Mya: I feel like while I’ve learned a lot of lessons, in terms of seeing myself reflected in studies of the Middle Ages or even like media based on the Middle Ages, I would say that as a black American, I don’t really see a lot of other Black people represented in like medieval media or I feel like even in like history because it’s obviously… it’s talking about Europe. So there’s not really a lot of like tales of like Black people at that time. And so I would say…there’s like that gap where I feel I’m missing… I guess, I don’t know if I can say representation because it’s history. But even when it does get to fantasy, I feel like there’s also that [missing] representation in that.

And I feel like that’s also a kind of tough line to walk on, because even when you’re doing stuff that’s historical fiction, you know how much is historical, how much is fiction? Cause, if you want to represent people that look like people from all over the world, how much of that can you really show if you’re showing, like, a historical Medieval representation of Europe or something like that. So I think that’s kind of something that I’ve been thinking about in terms of seeing myself or like… how much have I learned that’s really relevant to me personally and the world I’m living in now. So that’s something I’ve been thinking about.

Alan: Yeah. With regards to, you know, representation of Black people, you know, I do think it’s exciting…And there’s another part of it that’s kind of depressing which is some of the reaction right. But .. have you seen House of the Dragon?

Mya: I have not. Yeah, I have not seen any of it at all. But my friends are really into it right now.

Alan: Yeah, yeah, the season is airing as we speak. And you know, I think I think that’s you know. That’s one of those moments, I think, that show in particular, it’s like this is this is really cool and then. You know, but, but this whole idea of the Middle Ages… I don’t know this is what I get excited about with this idea of the global Middle Ages, right, like…And the gatekeeper-ness of it all kind of starts to dissolve, because absolutely, I mean, there were people like, like… the biblical narrative that was huge in the Middle Ages. You’ve got the three wise men, right? One of them is always represented as being from Africa. You know. It’s like there’s… Yeah, it’s not. It’s not as…I don’t know some of these, like nationalist groups, I think, have really kind of taken off with the Middle Ages. But anyways, what about? What about you, Emrys?

Emrys: And I think it keep talking about what you were talking about, which is what I know in a lot of our podcast discussions we have just, like, talked a lot about the role of fantasy within it. And, you know, it’s due so much to this sort of ubiquitous aspects of medievalism and that sort of aesthetic culture (or cultural aesthetic), which of course, that is difficult because it often draws on time periods that we’re not actually like medieval or something. And there is a lot of media like [Medieval]. But there’s also Dragons. So I think like I said a little bit before, just there’s something really interesting about the story based archetypes that sort of revolve around these like narratives, and like cultural touchstones, which I think extend past a historic bubble into the realm of spiritual, and also like identity formation, and like …how do we like navigate the world, and what roles do we take on during our navigation? Which, I know a lot of people use those in different practices like tarot or stuff like that…use the idea of archetypes as like a grounding point to pass through the world or learn things or whatever. So I don’t know. I think there’s something actually very useful about how much that aesthetic has, like, proliferated in the cultural moment we’re in because of the expansive archetypes of it. And I love it when people are playing with it instead of being restrictive because of it.

Alan: Hmm.

Emrys: But I feel like it’s more true to its intention but also it’s like future building with it or whatever.

Alan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you mentioned archetype. So I mean that, that is also making me wonder, you know, specifically… I mean some of the ones that I’ve identified here just earlier, you know, like, this idea of the Knight, the Dragon, or we could even maybe think of that as like – to come back to Shrek – the Ogre, right? Or like the monster Grendel, but also Princess, the outcast, the Prince and the Pauper. Those sorts of things, those kinds of archetypes. Do you see yourself, or have you noticed yourself, using those archetypes as a way to think of yourself and kind of like the narratives that you build for yourself? Which I know is maybe a bit of a hairy question, but I guess I guess the crux of it being our understanding of ourselves, through these archetypes that are informed by the Middle Ages. How much of that do you think is going on for yourself?

Mya: That’s a good question, yeah…I mean, I don’t know. I feel like I’ve always…I don’t know if I can say like I’ve taken it in as something that …But like, I feel really attached to archetypes of characters that have to make tough decisions all the time because I feel – I don’t know – maybe I’ve had to make a lot of tough decisions too? Because I feel like that’s kind of like what the Green Knight is about making a tough decision or choosing to stick behind your word. And I feel like I’ve always been raised to like…never back down from a commitment or to never cancel on an obligation. So I feel like I’m attached to characters that, like, have to do something like that. And maybe that’s also why I’m so drawn to stories that are connected to fate. Like I said earlier, like, this idea of: you’re this Knightand like you – calling back to Shrek – just have to go save the Princess. Like you, you have to fight the dragon. That’s just something you have to do. And you have to make tough decisions along the way. Like, am I gonna be friends with this donkey? So I think that’s something that I’ve connected to myself….Thinking like …the reasoning behind making tough decisions and like choosing to stick with your words.

Alan: This is opening up like a whole other topic here I think but … I mean what you’re saying for me makes me think of the whole kind of like chivalry and code of honor kind of stuff.

Mya: Yes, yes.

Alan: It’s very honorable to not back, you know, to keep obligations right?

Mya: Yes, honor for sure.

Alan: Yeah. Yeah. I too have kind of it in certain moments kind of identified a little bit with that kind of Knight archetype or it’s like, yeah, I have. I have to be tough. I have to do, you know, what I have to do. I also have definitely identified with, like, this outcast kind of archetype in the sense that, you know, I don’t know…It wasn’t – not to date myself. But I feel it’s becoming a lot more socially acceptable to be interested in this kind of stuff. Whereas in the past you’d be labeled like a nerd or something and kind of relegated a little bit to the margin. So I think – not to turn this into Lord of the Rings((J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, 1954).) Hour – but Strider from Lord of the Rings. You know Aragon, when I was reading that first as a kid it was definitely like oh, this is like the coolest person ever. I mean Emrys, what about you? Do you know there’s specific archetypes that you resonate with or that maybe in form?

Emrys: It’s interesting that you mentioned Aragon, as well as Shrek, because although they are both from really different movies and different pieces of media, they’re both like – again like archetypes of sort of a begrudgingly… or like they fight their fate a lot. Like Aragon obviously doesn’t want to do what he was born to do, which was be a king. And then, like, Shrek is sort of forced into the position of a knight, even though he’s, like, understood within their society as like the position of a monster, which I just find so narratively yummy and enticing. It’s such a good thing. Yeah.

Alan: Yeah.

Emrys: Yeah. I mean, my name is Emrys and that is based on the Welsh translation – and mistranslation – of Merlin the wizard figure, so I think that maybe speaks for itself.

Alan: Yeah, I don’t. I don’t know why. But we don’t have wizard on our list of archetypes, and it absolutely should be present. Or mage or something to that effect, right? But so speaking about Arthurian legend, I’m curious now at this juncture, if either of you also had this experience growing up: I thought that for a while Arthurian legend was just kind of like history like, you know, this idea that King Arthur didn’t actually exist. Like the Green knight, you know the poem, Lancelot… All of that stuff, Gwaine. [They are all] not actually historical figures. And you know, I think this is what I’m curious about hearing from both of you is like this kind of process of taking the fantastic and then realizing that – maybe through the process of a modernist education – the fantastic becomes regulated to the side and then it’s somehow devalued. Did either of you experience something like that?

Mya: I have interesting thoughts on the idea of the wizard and like magic, because like my dad, he’s really Christian. And so I think I’ve gotten a lot of, like, history of the Bible and trying to contextualize the world around the Bible and using that as, like the root of history. And so then it’s like…I don’t know. The Bible even says some interesting things about magic, but I feel like that’s the only thing that’s ever kind of made me think differently about maybe some fantastical characters because I’m like, well, I have this perspective of what magic is according to the Bible, and that makes being a witch or a wizard like crazy and evil or something like that. But I can’t say that I found something out that’s made me… that really rocked too much of what I think of, like some fantastical media or archetype or character that I’ve been into.

Alan: I feel like I should maybe clarify that this process for me was not when I was like 16. This was when I was like 6, just not to give anybody the impression that I thought this when I was of a certain age where reality is maybe a little bit more set in place for our idea of the world.

Mya: Yes. Yeah. No, I understand. I used to – well, I don’t know if this is controversial – but I used to think like Greek mythology, I thought that was history, straight up. Like, you know, like the Hercules movie. I thought that was a historical reenactment.

Alan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I don’t know, maybe that’s also another indication of this kind of like Western cultural flow here right, because a lot of the Middle Ages like – what if we were in the Middle Ages having an audio recording somehow? You know, we wouldn’t be talking about these sorts of things. We’d probably be talking about, you know, assuming that we were in Europe, right, like the Iliad or or the Odyssey or whatever, right. Or Hercules. But yeah, well, we’re kind of coming up a little bit towards the end of the, you know, list of questions here, but I’m curious if you know either of you have any other thoughts about this topic that we haven’t addressed?

Emrys: Well, I’m wondering for you, Alan, what your earliest memory was of any sort of, like, Middle Ages media? Since we both answered.

Alan: Yeah. No, that’s fair. That’s fair. Absolutely 100% it was the animated version of The Hobbit, the 1976 or 1977. I think it was even like straight to VHS or something like that straight to tape I guess if it’s from the 70s. But yeah, no. And then I was like Gandalf, what’s up with that? You know, and I think kind of coming back to what you were talking about a little bit Mya. I know that JRR Tolkien was definitely informed by his religion and a lot of that kind of world building. But then what I think is interesting in the context of what you are bringing up is that he’s including Wizards. So it’s kind of like this, this interesting kind of synthesis of things. Yeah. I mean, I feel like the Middle Ages as a historical moment or as a fantastical kind of realm, you see a lot of those synthesis opportunities happening that I feel like you just don’t in other media. I don’t know if that statement could be tested and proven wrong. But, it seems like the rules are a little bit more loose if that makes sense, and I think that there’s a lot of interesting things that can happen in that space, but….

Emrys: Yeah, I mean. I think Lord of the Rings is a really interesting example and we could do an entire piece about that like…

Alan: For sure.

Emrys: [And] whether it is the Middle Ages or not.

Alan: Yeah, the Middle Ages or just Middle Earth.

Emrys: Yeah.

Alan: Yeah, I couldn’t resist the pun. Have you read or watched Lord of the Rings, Mya?

Mya: I mean, I’ve seen… I haven’t watched all the Lord of the Rings, but I have definitely seen some of them. I mean, I’ve… this may also not be Middle Ages, but I watched all of Harry Potter in one day with an ear infection when I was a kid.

But yeah, I’ve only seen a couple Lord of the Rings [series]. I haven’t read any of those books. I actually really struggled to read, like, really long series books, so like… I feel like book lovers would be really mad. But, also like, if I do read a serious book, I usually just like to start in the middle of the series. Honestly, if I did read Lord of the Rings, I’d probably just look up like the best book in this series and read that.

Alan: We’ll have to cut that. I think, right… [laughs] I’m kidding. I mean, I’m kind of…. I think what’s interesting here is that I feel like between the three of us, Mya, you might be the person who’s the most well read with things around actual medieval narratives. If you or or like based on actual medieval narratives, because you know you’re you’re talking about or, well, we’ve talked about the Green Knight. And then Grendel and Beowulf. I’ve never read Beowulf, or Grendel, for that matter. But then there’s also kind of that, you know, how does that fit with this kind of distinction between fantasy and history or reality? Are the stories that were written during the Middle Ages fantasy or history text? Maybe that’s a lot to unwind here at the end. Thank you very much for coming on and joining us, Mya, very, very exciting conversation. I think if only we had more time…

Mya: Yeah. I feel like I might have to do a global Middle Ages research project after this to draw a map or something.

Alan: I have. Yeah, I have so many resources that I could hand your way for that. And yeah. Thank you for your time and I wish you the best on your travels and for the listeners, I guess I will just very briefly plug Medievalism Today is the podcast that Emrys and I co-host. And that can be found on Spotify. So thank you for listening. And maybe we’ll see you out there somewhere in the world.

Peace and love.